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Thema: The Spanish Civil War (McMonkey vs Jerec)

  1. #61
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    My succesful attack owed as much opportunism, and to my good and plentiful attacking units, as it does to any grand plan. If there had been a few more Infantry, or an Armoured Car in Madrid I doubt I would have been able to capture it this turn, so there was an element of luck too.

    I agree with improving the defence of cities, it is something I overlooked. Why are cities the bonus from city walls compared with stackable terrain? I'm guessing stackable (if fortress) is double defence, but the Civiliopedia says city walls are triple defence. Is this incorrect, or am I missing something?

    I totally agree with the removal of the Sun Tzu wonder, it is too big of an advantage and it makes it less fun for the Nationalist player too. I like it when one of my units gains veteran status and has to be nursed back to health for a future mission.

    The number of event generated units was something I gave a lot of thought to. The numbers I used were the most historically accurate I could get. However, game play is much more important than accuracy. This is easily remedied by reducing the number of units from each event. At the moment I would say I have a surplus of good units which has allowed me to strike in several places at once. If the numbers were reduced I would have to be a bit more selective and that would give you the chance to react.

  2. #62
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Zitat Zitat von McMonkey Beitrag anzeigen
    I agree with improving the defence of cities, it is something I overlooked. Why are cities the bonus from city walls compared with stackable terrain? I'm guessing stackable (if fortress) is double defence, but the Civiliopedia says city walls are triple defence. Is this incorrect, or am I missing something?
    You're correct, but there's the fact that all units ignore city walls. So while defense is normal in a city, it's 2x that on a grassland square. Case in point: My 2 Assault Guards in Madrid were vets; they probably would have caused at least a few losses if they had had that bonus. *shrugs* As it was, they were mauled.

    The number of event generated units was something I gave a lot of thought to. The numbers I used were the most historically accurate I could get. However, game play is much more important than accuracy. This is easily remedied by reducing the number of units from each event. At the moment I would say I have a surplus of good units which has allowed me to strike in several places at once. If the numbers were reduced I would have to be a bit more selective and that would give you the chance to react.
    Other solutions would be to give roughly equal numbers of units to both sides, or to make the placement less concentrated. I think it's fine that the Nationalists have a heavy advantage in quality Infantry, the problem is having them enter the field in a single mass. Perhaps their delivery could be spread out over multiple places or staggered over a certain # of turns?
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  3. #63
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    I thought that the Ignore City walls flag also applied to Fortresses, but I may well be wrong. If I am then of course this is a big disadvantage. I will make sure all cities are built on good defensive terrain. What would you suggest. I would like the average town to be +50% and major cities to be +100%, or is that too much?

    I think the total reinforcements given to each side is roughly equal, but I will double check this. I agree that large groups arriving in Burgos can be a bit unbalancing, but I don't think spreading them out would make a huge amount of difference because the high mobility will allow them to concentrate very quickly. I think there is enough space to add more events and split up the creation of units a bit, perhaps with a delayed event. I think a slight reduction in numbers would also be beneficial. There are just too many bombers! I might make the artillery a bit cheaper to build so that a player can still attack, even if they lose a lot of their event generated units.

  4. #64
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Sorry about the delay, RL is keeping me hopping this weekend. Should hopefully be able to post by tomorrow evening.

    Regarding cities. Ignore City Walls does not apply to fortresses, I confirmed this when I started this scen because of the significsnt impact it made on defense lines. It's why I've never tried to truly defend a city, or only with cheap units when there's no other option. So to make cities equal in Defense to grassland, they need a base boost of 100%. As for an additional 50 or 100%...not sure. It depends on how offensive you want the scen to be. I would suggest only certain size cities even getting a 50% boost (IMHO it doesn't make sense that hamlets would provide the same amount of cover as a good-size urban sprawl). Say, anything 6+, cities which could then reasonably be incorporated into a defense line (like Toledo, which I had to abandon.) As for an additional 100% (for a grand total of 200), I think that's only justified in the objective cities (Barcelona, Burgos, etc). I don't think this would be too much, because as it is a trench square out in the open makes a net 300% bonus, and you've already proven that those are beatable.

    Mmm. Yeah, bombers seemed to be the mainstay in your latest blitz (correct me if I'm wrong.) If so, that alone could help. I think units could be left alone if cities become much more defensible.
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  5. #65
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Was just halfway through the turn, and...umm...I don't suppose the Nationalist units occupying Cartagena got there by using the bomber's ZOC on 78,110?
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  6. #66
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    The units that went to Cartagena bypassed the stack near Lorca by going to the west, out of range of its ZOC. Once Murcia's defenders were destroyed I could move quite freely. I did place my aircraft to prevent any Communist Militia showing up in inconvenient spots after a city was captured. As far as I'm aware I didn't use aircraft to bypass ZOC. Certainly never intentionally, though there were a lot of aircraft involved in that attack. It is also possible that I airlifted some units into the city, though I can't remember for sure.

  7. #67
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Just checking. I ask because I had (and still have a couple) units in stacks on 75,111 and 79,109. Just double checked, and that does box in Cartagena with a ZOC that necessitates destroying at least one of those two stacks to get to it by land. Since neither stack is destroyed...would you mind checking me on this? I would very much prefer to get a second opinion before acting on this if need be. Until then, I'll finish everything in the turn aside from moving the remnants of my defenders around Cartagena.
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  8. #68
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    I have just taken a look and you appear to be right. I think I attacked the city with the Br.20s on that Industrial square, partly for its defensive bonus and partly to stop and Communist Militia that appeared from the city blocking my lines of advance. I did not take into account that these bombers would be creating an artificial ZOC as the stack off to the north-east doesn't look like it should be able to prevent my advance. I see this is an optical illusion though and the city capture is illegal.

    I can't remember the exact details of the attack, but the units in the city have no damage and I'm pretty sure all the attacking was done by the bombers. The simple solution is for you to move use the cheat menu to destroy the Nationalist units in the city and then use CivCity to cheat it back to Republican control. Feel free to also cheat back any improvements destroyed and a few hundred thousand pesetas to cover any money I gained from you. On my next turn I can then cheat back the units that were in Cartagena to Lorca. Sound Ok to you?

  9. #69
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Excellent solution, makes sure I don't have to see what units were actually in Cartagena. Will post later tonight.
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  10. #70
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Considering how often I'm being forced to revise defense plans (and evacuate, like in this turn), lots of thinking and lots of units makes for a very long play time. My apologies for taking so many days with this.


    With the fall of Madrid, the Republican troops around the city lose all morale. A mass retreat takes place, with panic spreading through the ranks. All feet tramp north. Will the sight of fresh entrenchments, a new line of defense, give these beaten soldiers a new chance at standing to fight? Time will tell.



    Logrono retaken and all enemy units around it destroyed.

    Vitoria bombed, 2 Tanks and 1 Nieuport destroyed, along with 1 Tank outside the city.

    2 Heinkel He-112s shot down south of Bilbao. The Dewoitine pilots were eager to enter the fray until they realized that they would be outgunned by the He-70s. (Looked up in the Rules that He-70s have 7 Def and 3HP. )

    2 Condor Legions destroyed North of Samossiera, 1 vet Communist Militia lost. The Communist militia that finished the deed had enough spirit left begin their retreat back to friendly forces.

    Cuenca retaken, for a loss of 1 vet Communist Militia and 2 Milicianos.

    Multiple units of FT-17 tanks left behind the the front lines of the Nationalist advance batter their way back to friendly forces:

    Requena recaptured.

    Valencia recaptured at a high cost: 6 Communist Militia (3 vet), and 1 vet Assault Guard lost.

    2 lone bombers shot down outside Cartagena by desperate Nieuport pilots.

    Irun retaken, 1 Rep Infantry lost.

    Gandia retaken for a loss of 2 vet Rep Infantry.

    Alcoy retaken for a loss of 1 vet Communist Militia.

    Almansa retaken.

    1 Legionario destroyed in Alicante for a loss of 1 vet Rep Infantry and 1 Communist Militia.

    Observation: What I was able to do this turn shows why a minimum boost of 100% in defense to all cities (by terrain) is necessary. Normally, even lone Legionarios and Regulares (like the ones I destroyed in many of the cities I took this turn) would normally be invincible against all but bombers or tanks. But this time I had a chance to destroy these powerful units with an acceptable sacrifice of multiple lesser Infantry per Legionario/Regulares destroyed. But even with the Legionarios in Requena and Valencia vulnerable, it took FT-17 tanks to finish them off in particular, since there's a river under both cities.
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    Geändert von Jerec (19. Mai 2012 um 08:06 Uhr)
    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  11. #71
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    Post Nationalists March 1937



    March was mostly a month of mopping up operations. Requena, Gandia, Alcoy, Elche, Cuenca, Valencia, Brunette and Gatefe all captured with minor skirmishes. 13 Communist Militia, 1 Civil Guard, 1 FT17, 2 Republican Infantry, 2 Miliciano and 3 N52 destroyed across the front.

    Falangist troops capture Guadalajara. The defending Civil Guard unit manages to destroy one 75mm Artillery battery and one Falange unit. The two Communist Militia created outside of the city are destroyed at the cost of one He-51 and one Falange unit.

    Aranjuez is captured. 1 Civil Guard destroyed. Two veteran Nationalist Infantry are lost taking out the Communist Militia outside the city. One Nationalist Infantry is lost probing the defences of the stack to the north-west of Madrid. The stack to the south-west is destroyed at the price of one CR-32 and two Nationalist Infantry.

    West of Lorca the isolated Communist Militia fight to the last bullet and take out one CR32 and one veteran Regulares!

    Between Aranda de Duero and Guadalajara the two Communist Militia in the hills are destroyed, but at the cost of four Nationalist Infantry.

    The Nationalist lines have been straightened and strengthened and only Cartagena and one small stack hold out in the rear.

    *NOTE I realise the save says 1973, but trust me, we are still in the thirties!
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  12. #72
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Jerec
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    Albacete bombed by a new Republican airforce launching from Cartagena, SB2 Katiuskas spearheading the assault. 18 units destroyed for a cost of 2 Chatos against Br.20s.

    Observation: It seems a little odd that fighters attacking bombers in a city would be shot down. *shrugs* But if that's how defensive those bombers were in reality, I have no complaints. I suspect the reason my losses weren't far higher was because a) the Br.20s were in a city (no terrain bonus), and b) I was using Sb2 Katiuskas against the more healthy enemy bombers, tanks, and single AA cannon, with fighters coming in last against the damaged units. Against the Katiuskas, it seems that even veteran AA Cannons are no match, except possibly under AA defenses.


    With their old defenses overrun and Madrid taken, the dispirited Republican troops again entrench, waiting for the inevitable onslaught of the Army of Africa and Condor Legion.



    Vitoria retaken.

    1 Destroyer north of Pollensa sunk.

    Note: I don't know if you've taken note of this to change or not, but I think you mentioned that I'm not supposed to have any Fokker DXXIs yet. To fix this in the future just check the start of the scen and delete them from where they were originally--Cartagena.
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    "Cease firing, but if any enemy planes appear, shoot them down in a friendly fashion." -Admiral William Halsey

  13. #73
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    I will play my turn in the morning. Too much concentration required and I'm feeling dog tired.

  14. #74
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    Nearly finished turn. I have to go to work now. Will post tonight if I get the chance.

  15. #75
    Evertonian Avatar von McMonkey
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    Post Nationalists April 1937

    The two remaining Civil Guards west of Madrid are bombed out of existence. Vitoria and Logrono are re-occupied. Outside Albacete two I-15 Chato's are shot down and one CR32 lost.

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