The Spanish Civil War (McMonkey vs Jerec)

[McMonkey]

On the Madrid front Toledo and Aranjuez captured. Two Civil Guards, two Communist Militia killed as well as one Potez bomber and another aircraft (either a N52 or Br19). Regretably the Nationalist Army of General Yague arrives too late to relieve the brave defenders of the Alcazar.



Further south in Castille Alcazar de San Juan and Montiel captured. Two Civil Guards, two Communist Militia killed

In Navarra one Gudaris unit is wiped out south or Irun and three Civil Guards near Logrono.



EDIT: Also, one Fokker DXXI (which should have arrived much later in the game, never mind) shot down outside of Almeria.

[Jerec]

Aranjuez? With no losses? There goes Madrid...

[McMonkey]

Aranjuez had very little to defend it. The stack to the north-east of Toledo that I guess was supposed to be blocking the Army of Africa was easily bypassed as my troops followed up the bombers, thus rendering the stacks ZOC useless. Capturing Aranjuez disbanded the N52 over that stack, but I didn't feel strong enough to attack them and be able to hold onto the gains.

[Jerec]

So you used bombers to make an artificial ZOC and bypass the stacks on 55,71 and 51,69? Oh, my. I had no clue that was legal; thought there was some universal house rule for modern scenarios like Belle Epoque about creating ZOCs for ground units with air units. This completely changes my strategy...any attempt to create defense lines out in the open is useless now, unless the line is solid with no weak links. Guess I'm defending purely from inside cities from now on.

This turn may take a little while. I'll be having all the units in a ring around Madrid converging on the city, as well as rethinking grand strategy for the north.

[McMonkey]

I have always considered this a legitimate tactic (unless stated in the house rules) and have even incorporated it into my scenarios where skirmisher type units have the 'ignore ZOC' flag so that they can help their army infiltrate into enemy lines. I think forbidding artificially bypassing ZOC is a tricky one to implement. For example, I didn't deliberately set out to bypass your stack this turn. I had some bombers within range of Aranjuez and when they attacked they found only limited resistance. I then sent in ground troops to take the city and as the bombers and their fighter escort were in the right place to negate the ZOC of the large stack they slipped past and took the city. I did not do this in a calculated way, it just evolved.

I have been placing units in a line to contain raiders, but I don't necessarily expect the line to be 100% watertight. I just wanted to stop your raiders from moving freely and force you to commit air units if you wanted to break through. This would give me an indication of where your raiders had passed and would also give me a chance to shoot down your aircraft.

That said, I don't want the scenario to be a based entirely on fortress cities. I wanted to make use of the map and have defencive lines out in the country side. If this can only be achieved by forbidding ZOC bypassing then we may have to do that. I don't want you to have to completely revise your strategy because of this and I can't really be bothered replaying my entire turn, so I could use the cheat menu to move my men out of Aranjuez and hand it back with CivCity and you could then cheat back the defenders on your turn. Although I stripped the stack of air cover I didn't attack it so it should be fairly easy to rectify this situation and play on with the new house rule. Sound good to you?

This is one of the reasons that I recently suggested a standard set of house rules. I suppose this is part of the lurning curve of the play test, so I guess its good this has come up!

[Jerec]

Very good. I really shouldn't have assumed anything about the house rules, so thank you for graciously considering to do this.

I apologize if my previous post sounded like an accusation, didn't intend it seem that way--I can easily see how it would have been natural to take advantage of the bombers' ZOC after attacking Aranjuez. I honestly wouldn't have any grounds to complain, considering that I didn't make sure to specify house rules from the start.

I agree about it being tricky to have a house rule about this, which is why I usually save multiple times through a long turn. If I blunder somehow in movement, I can rectify the problem without replaying the whole thing. Raiders with the flag to ignore ZOC make plenty of sense strategy-wise, and I fully appreciate their value in other scens. It just doesn't seem too realistic to say aircraft could pave the way for heavy infantry in the same way ground skirmishers can.

To make sure I understand, you're saying that you will post a new turn with the units out of Aranjuez, and I'll cheat the destroyed units back in on this turn? Not sure if you meant if Aranjuez will change hands before or after I play the current turn.

[McMonkey]

No need to apologise. I totally understood where you were coming from. I'm glad the issue has arisen early in the game so we can clarify the rule and get on with our planning. I do think that ZoC is essential in this scenario to utilize the excellent map to the full. To me an endless series if city sieges is a bit dull. Forming and breaking front lines is much more of a challenge and is also more historically accurate!

I will move my units out of Aranjuez and swap the city back to you using CivCity. When you play your turn please cheat back any units that were killed in that city or were disbanded due to its capture (I think the stack to the NW shrunk by 3!). I will post the amended save as soon as I get a chance this evening.

[McMonkey]

Here is the fixed save:

[Jerec]

I've started the turn, replacing all the lost units homed to Aranjuez and replacing them in the defense line.

Two observations regarding aircraft:

1. I think tweaking the aircraft defense values was a bit too much. After a little testing, I confirmed that a vet Nieuport 52 (which I have a good number of) can shoot down a Fiat CR 32 and survive. Considering how much better the Fiats are supposed to be, I don't think this is a good thing. I suppose this is confirmed by the fact that my newly-made vet Fokker D.XXI in front of Almeria was shot down with no losses. That's close to the best fighter the Republicans can have in terms of defense--if it can be shot down that easily, it might become a significant problem later in-game, where any fighter is practically guarenteed to be shot down if attacked out in the open.

2. Fighters don't always automatically defend when a ground unit stack is covered by them and an opponent's fighter attacks. I've tested this, and if, say, an Armored Car is in the stack, then that unit will defend against the enemy fighter--and that fighter will be easily shot down. This is also a problem for bombers, since they then can't attack a stack with a fighter and any kind of ground units under it, since they don't have the "attack air units in mid-air" flag. This was the reason I suggested putting fighter cover beside a stack instead of on top a couple posts back. A little awkward, but it avoids these problems.

Because of these two hitches, I hesitate to touch your stack on 62,74 that is covered by a Fiat CR 32. Technically, my vet Nieuports could shoot the fighter cover down, but I expect a good ground unit in that stack to shoot down any fighter I send against it. I do have the resources to hopefully whittle the stack down with both bombers and ground units, but with the problem of only being able to attack with fighters...advice to solve this little impasse? The best idea I can come up with is for you to move the fighter by cheat mode to next to the stack, with the house rule that it must be shot down before bombers are used on the stack. I've attached the turn for you to do so, in case you agree to doing this. Can't really think of any other solution, and I would see too much if I tried to move the fighter myself.

I hadn't thought of these problems before until a little testing this turn. From now on I will be putting my Fighters next to the stack they defend to avoid this problem for you, until a better solution can be found.

[McMonkey]

I will take a look at it this evening. I think we may have to come up with some kind of solution like you suggest as the air stack problem could break an otherwise excellent scenario. I will give you a reply asap.

[McMonkey]

A couple of thoughts.

1) Remember that aircraft also benefit from terrain defence bonuses. I didn't find it so simple to shoot down CR-32s with an N52 when the Chirri was over woods with a river.

2) I do think your idea for having a fighter in the next square would work. Should we just revert back to the old fighter stats and play on with this rule?

3) If we do would it be possible to delay me moving one of my fighters until my next turn? The reason I ask is that the other stacks have good terrain next to it so my fighters would not lose any bonus, however one stack has only grassland nearby and my fighter would be very vulnerable. If I had known we were using this rule I would not have moved the stack to this location.

I will do a bit more testing on the old stats to see if they will work with this new rule.

[McMonkey]

Ok then. I have run some tests and I think I have got a fairly good balance. We can always tweak it some more if needs be.

First of I created three match ups. All non veteran and all on hill terrain. Number 1 was a He51 vs an N52. Number 2 was a CR32 vs a I-16. Number 3 was a Me190 vs an I-15.

In the first test I used the current stats and it was clearly too easy for the attacker.

In test 2 I gave all the aircraft the x2 vs Air flag and it was way too easy for the defender.

In test 3 I increased all the aircrafts defence strength by 1 and here were the outcomes:

He51 vs N52

Battle 1 - He51 win with yellow health bar left 2- He51 yellow 3- He51 yellow 4- He51 red 5 - He51 red

As you would expect the He 51 came out on top, but only just in a few fights. Against better aircraft it would come unstuck!

CR32 vs a I-16

Battle 1 - I-16 win with yellow health bar 2- CR32 yellow 3- CR32 red 4- CR32 red 5- CR32 yellow

This was a pleasing test. Although the CR32 had a slight edge it was close. As these fighters are main types for both sides I think this works well.

Me109 vs I-15 (has better defence than I-16 due to its manoeuvrability)

Battle 1- I-15 win with red health bar left 2- Me109 yellow 3- Me109 yellow 4-Me109 yellow 5- Me109 red

Although the Me109 has a distinct edge it is not invincible and there is a limited number available.


Overall I think these stats can work. Depending on the aircraft involved the attacker has a slight edge, but the defender can pick its terrain! If an Me109 had to attack an I-16 from over grassland terrain while the I-16 was on a mountain or hill the I-16 has a much better chance of surviving and it may well gain veteran status for any follow up attackers to have to face. Veteran status will have a big impact on air combat as it should. I deliberately made all new aircraft non-veteran so that veterans would be a real asset.

I will have a go at the stats and the altered turn now. I hope you will find these new stats acceptable.

[McMonkey]

I have just looked at the save and there are only two air protected stacks on my side. One of them is the one I mentioned (point 3) and the other is a fairly insignificant stack which is fairly out of the way. When I cleared the movement allowance of this aircraft and moved it it continually crashed as it had run out of fuel. I think we should just play on this turn and begin the house rule from your turn onwards. This would make sense to me as it wouldn't put me at an unfair advantage and you can plan for my next turn accordingly!

Here are the amended rules:

[Jerec]

Judging by the results of your tests, these stats should work fine. I'm not completely familiar with the abilities of these types of aircraft, so it's ultimately your decision as to what's a realistic outcome.

Regarding the air-covered stack up against one of my defense lines...it was a pity I couldn't use my bombers on it this turn. I don't even want to think about how many heavy-duty attackers could be under that Fiat.


4 Requetes outside Logrono destroyed after a bombing run, with Motorized and Catalan Infantry hunting down survivors.

Logrono taken, 1 vet Mot Infantry lost.

A buildup of Falangists is spotted outside Aranda de Duero by recon patrols. The Republican generals are thanking their lucky stars that defenses outside Samosierra have just recently been re-positioned.
(The stack on 58,50 has a Nieuport 52 directly south of it, "covering" it. It shouldn't get in the way of ZOC if you just destroy all the ground units.)

[McMonkey]

Thanks for allowing my stack one turns grace, very sporting of you. From now on there will be no more air protected stacks, just air cover in the adjacent squares. I will have a bash at my turn in a bit!