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Thema: Experiment: The duel of the Spy Twins

  1. #1
    Say My Name Avatar von Zulan
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    Experiment: The duel of the Spy Twins

    Hier entsteht in Kürze ein Bericht über ein ungewöhnliches Experiment.

    Da mit Obsolete ein nicht-deutschsprachler mitspielt, wird die Story in Englisch gehalten. Kommentare in Deutsch sind kein Problem. Ich hoffe ihr seid da tolerant, im SG 34 hat es auch geklappt .

    From this point on the story will be in english. .


    I do not want a discussion about ongoing pitboss games! Please try not to spoil anything.

    Ich möchte hier keine Diskussion über laufende Pitboss Spiele führen. Bitte haltet euch diesbezüglich zurück.

    About the Setup:

    There are four players and four deity AIs. The goal is to outtech the AIs and win the game (no cultural victory). Technology trading is disabled.

    This is not a usual multiplayer game with elaborate diplomacy, there already is a plan and the players form natural teams depending on the map. The teams have to cooperate to get an economic advantage over the AIs - by using a cooperative espionage economy (EE).

    An espionage economy is not a new idea itself. It has been done before:
    a) In high difficulty settings to profit from the enormous tech advantage of an AI. See for example the SG 34 (deity, always war)
    b) In multiplayer games without techtrade for underdeveloped players to catch up, usually with the agreement of the host. Usually this is done in the lategame.

    Recently some questions have been raised:

    - What happens if you do this between equal human partners?
    - How far can you push the spy bonus?
    - Can you use the left over gold from the spy to further push the research of both partners?

    Thats what this experiment is about:

    Find out how far you can go with a cooperative EE. The setup with deity AIs and no techtrade should be challanging. Of course it does not replicate a usual multiplayer setup. The two teams compete against each other. It will be hard for each team to get the great wall and a religion - two key elements in an EE.

    About the Players:

    Auron playing Elisabeth - researcher
    - Two strong economic traits
    - Philosophic can be used for key bulbing

    Snaaty playing Ramses - spy
    - Industrial can be used for the great wall, but the starting techs are not to good
    - The unique building can be used for a theo-bulb to get one of the precious religions

    Obsolete playing Huyana - researcher
    - Financial again for a strong economy
    - Industrial for the obvious wall
    - Obsolete himself somehow gets an additional + 50% for wonders, noone knows why. He makes excessive use of that

    Zulan playing Gandhi - spy
    - Superstrong unique unit
    - Philosophical for many great spies

    Using spiritual:
    All the designated spies have the spiritual trait. This unlocks a powerful bonus: The spies can switch civics from the researcher - so the trait is essentially shared (except for the cheap temples ).

    The map:
    Thanks to KingK for making a map for us with the following requirements:
    - Continents or Big&Small
    - Somehow balanced starting positions
    - Deity difficulty
    - 4 Humans: Ghandi, Ramses (Spies), Eli, Huyana (Researcher)
    - two pairs of researcher and spy near each other

    This lets us come directly to the point without trying lots of maps where Auron starts on a small tundra island just blocked by Toku .

    We have set ourselfes one Restriction:
    - No gifting of cities!

    Gifting of cities makes it more easy to use the culture bonus. But it is not impossible to get it without gifting. Also it seems that city gifiting is getting banned/limited in newer pitboss games. I think that has hardly any impact on the EE when done right - but we will see.

    Game mode:

    We play via the lobby each monday for a few hours. We talk using Skype and don't take the competition too seriously.
    Geändert von Zulan (16. März 2010 um 16:07 Uhr)

  2. #2
    Say My Name Avatar von Zulan
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    Now I want to talk about espionage costs, especially the cost for stealing technologies.

    Achtung Spoiler:

    All modificators are multiplied, so -50% -50% = -75%. Exception: the two religion boni are added, not multiplied.
    • +50% First of all the espionage costs are 1,5 of the costs of the technology.
    • -20% If there is a trade route from the any of the spy's city to the host-city. The possibility for a trade route does not count, an actual trade route is needed. It is not always easy to get it because the trade routes are also influenced by player IDs and city numbers. It helps to close borders to players except the host. The best is to place the host-city on an island because oersea trade routes are more profitable and thus prefered.
    • -25% If the Spy controls the holy city of his state religion and the host-city has this religion.
    • -15% If the host-city has the Spy's state religion and this religion is not the state religion of the host. So it is best if the spy gets his own religion, spreads it to the host-city and the host has a different religion.
    • up to -50% for culture of the spy in the host-city. Now this one is pretty tricky, I'll come it it in detail later
    • +50% if there is a security center in the city - try to avoid it
    • up to +100% for distance between the spy's capital and the host city - so place it near the capital to get a good value around < 10%
    • between +100 and -50% for espionage spending. This is also somewhat complicated, so I'll talk about it later.
    • up to -50% for fortifying the spy in the target city. In 10% increments per turn. Counted from the frist turn where the spy could perform a mission (full movement). This is a must-use except for very rare exceptions.
    • +100% if couter espionage is active.



    I need to talk a little more about the bonus, i hope its not too boring for the readers. This time its the espionage spending multiplier.

    Achtung Spoiler:

    First of all espionage spending refers to the total amount of -Points ever generated by a player. It does not care how the points are distributed or if they have been used.

    The formula for the multiplier is:

    Code:
    (their points * 2 + your points) / (their points + your points * 2)
    For equal points this value is 1. It can approach 0.5 if your points are higher than their points or 2.0 vice versa. Using the ratio between your and their points you get the following graph:

    Bild

    As for generating there always is the base 4 from the palace, the host can not avoid this. The easiest way to boost this multiplier is an early Great Spy. The great spy does not only create 3000 - but also a bonus of about -40% cost (equals to + 67% output) when used around R 100. Hopefully we can demonstrate later on how strong the Great Spy from the wall is in the game itsself.

    The modifier applies to every espionage mission, including passive missions against anyone else. So it is easier for a spy to reveal demography data from anyone while the spy is somehow protected by the opposite effect.


    One last theory session for now: The culture bonus!

    Achtung Spoiler:

    First of all you need to know that there are two different culture values in a city:
    1) The culture of the plot the citiy is placed on. This is usually displayed in the game.
    2) The culture of the city itsself. It counts the overall generated culture by the city itsself associated to the owner over time.

    The culture bonus for espionage mission is based on the second value. The maximum value is -50% if the spy does have culture in the city and the host does not. It scales linear with the portion of culture between spy and host. Third party culture has no effect.

    So how can this happen:

    a) The city changes its owner after culture is generated. To generate the bonus the spy can found the city and:
    i) Spreads his religion generating culture. If the host has a different state religion it will not generate culture for the host. So one turn with the religion is actually enough for the rest of the game!
    ii) Using artists in caste system to generate culture of the spy.
    Both do involve gifting the city afterwards. As I said earlier we want to avoid this because it seems to get regulated in pitboss games.

    It is helpful to know in war, that this effect often occurs when you capture enemy cities giving the opponent good spots to do missions with the -50% bonus.

    but there is another way:

    b) The "insert culture" mission. This mission that spreads culture of the spy in the city (2). It spreads 10% of the total generated culture of the city but at least 1 . The requirement for this mission is that there is spy culture on the plot of the city (1)! The cost depends on the amount of generated culture.

    To use this, the host founds the spy-city near a city of the spy that will soon get its second (or third) culture expansion. The host never generates any culture in the city. After the culture expansion spreads spy-culture on the plot of the city the spy does a single "insert culture" mission. From now on he gets the full -50% bonus.

    There are a few pitfalls to this:
    - Creative leaders
    - Autospread of the wrong religion
    - Any building that generates culture...

    I do not konw yet if it might be profitable to spread culture even if the host does generate culture on his own. Maybe this can be explored during the game.
    Geändert von Zulan (12. Dezember 2014 um 23:58 Uhr) Grund: omg typo

  3. #3
    Handelt nicht mehr Avatar von Venezianer
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    Good luck!

  4. #4
    * Ultra-möhrig * Avatar von simsahas
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    I´m very excited
    PB-History: PB23 ● BF1 ● PB25 ● PB27 ● PB28 ● BF3 ● PB30 ● PB33 ● BF5 ● PB37 ● PB 38 ● BF7 ● PB44 ● BF9 ● PB47 ● PB48 ● PB 51 ● BF 15 ● PB 53 ● PB 54 ● PB 57 ● PB 60

    ~~~ W..........O..........M..........B..........A..........T ~~~


    Mitspieler sagen:
    Zitat Zitat von ElDuderino91 Beitrag anzeigen
    :woohoo: Ich spiele mit einem Genie zusammen :nana:

  5. #5
    Werde auch GELB! Avatar von Wiczi
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    Meine aktuelle Story:
    PBEM Duell gegen Fux

    Meine SG-Teilnahmen:
    SG 38 - Kyrus will auch mal
    SG 40 - Werden wir nun unsterblich?
    SG 46 - KKK - Kultureller Kaiser Klub

    DG 2: Werde auch Du Teil des GELBEN Treibens!

  6. #6
    Say My Name Avatar von Zulan
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    First post updated.

  7. #7
    Steine... Avatar von KingK
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    ich bin gespannt, wie meine map funktioniert
    "Flieht, ihr Narren!"

    check it out:

    1. Darius mit HAMMA Startposi Darius, Bts, Fractal, König
    2. Ich bin der Gott Empire Earth2 mit The Art of Supermancy, freies Scharmützel + Die Deutsche Kampagne
    3. Mal hier, mal da, mal dort... Meine Story zum PB31. Nur für Nicht-Mitspieler!!

    Zitat Zitat von HeymlicH
    KingK wurde bisher in _jedem_ PB, das er gespielt hat, gerusht. Du willst doch nicht etwa mit dieser Tradition brechen?:lach:


    ein Fred, der nur für und über mich ist:troet:

  8. #8
    schläft Avatar von Frozen
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    - Obsolete himself somehow gets an additional + 50% for wonders, noone knows why. But he is very greedy with that
    Obsolete, are you for rent?
    Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose

  9. #9
    Say My Name Avatar von Zulan
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    I forgot to mention a few things:

    Thanks to KingK for making a map for us with the following requirements:
    - Continents or Big&Small
    - Somehow balanced starting positions
    - Deity difficulty
    - 4 Humans: Ghandi, Ramses (Spies), Eli, Huyana (Researcher)
    - two pairs of researcher and spy near each other

    This lets us come directly to the point without trying lots of maps where Auron starts on a small tundra island just blocked by Toku .

    We have set ourselfes one Restriction:
    - No gifting of cities!

    Gifting of cities makes it more easy to use the culture bonus. But it is not impossible to get it without gifting. Also it seems that city gifiting is getting banned/limited in newer pitboss games. I think that has hardly any impact on the EE when done right - but we will see.

  10. #10
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von Ein_Nichts
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    This sounds really interesting and I'm eager to see how this game evolves. And as I don't really often read multiplayer games I'll finally get the clue about this whole Spy economy. Gotta read up SG34 too!

  11. #11
    Werde auch GELB! Avatar von Wiczi
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    So the teams are Zulan and Obs against Snaaty and Auron, right? Or don't you play in teams?
    Meine aktuelle Story:
    PBEM Duell gegen Fux

    Meine SG-Teilnahmen:
    SG 38 - Kyrus will auch mal
    SG 40 - Werden wir nun unsterblich?
    SG 46 - KKK - Kultureller Kaiser Klub

    DG 2: Werde auch Du Teil des GELBEN Treibens!

  12. #12
    Steine... Avatar von KingK
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    jop, so it is
    "Flieht, ihr Narren!"

    check it out:

    1. Darius mit HAMMA Startposi Darius, Bts, Fractal, König
    2. Ich bin der Gott Empire Earth2 mit The Art of Supermancy, freies Scharmützel + Die Deutsche Kampagne
    3. Mal hier, mal da, mal dort... Meine Story zum PB31. Nur für Nicht-Mitspieler!!

    Zitat Zitat von HeymlicH
    KingK wurde bisher in _jedem_ PB, das er gespielt hat, gerusht. Du willst doch nicht etwa mit dieser Tradition brechen?:lach:


    ein Fred, der nur für und über mich ist:troet:

  13. #13
    Say My Name Avatar von Zulan
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    Zitat Zitat von Wiczi Beitrag anzeigen
    So the teams are Zulan and Obs against Snaaty and Auron, right? Or don't you play in teams?
    Yes we are partners like that. But we are not teams as in having the same vision/tech etc.

  14. #14
    Werde auch GELB! Avatar von Wiczi
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    Ah, ok. So you are a kind of non-game-team . Then have fun
    Meine aktuelle Story:
    PBEM Duell gegen Fux

    Meine SG-Teilnahmen:
    SG 38 - Kyrus will auch mal
    SG 40 - Werden wir nun unsterblich?
    SG 46 - KKK - Kultureller Kaiser Klub

    DG 2: Werde auch Du Teil des GELBEN Treibens!

  15. #15
    Altkönig Avatar von wahl-profi
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    So the key question will be: Who can built the Great Wall?

    The other team might have a huge disadvantage...

    I would laugh if the AI builts it first...
    DG 2 ist beendet! Bayern hat die Weltherrschaft erreicht!

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