90 - Sachsens Glanz und Miguelustens Gloria

[Miguelito]

Die RB-Zuschauer wollen orakeln:

As far as wonder beelining, Oracle MC in vanilla is decent for IND, right? And you already have Mysticism.

Edit: I guess it loses some value with Colossus being banned, though. But 60h forges seem like something you want ASAP.

I think the most obvious reason to go Oracle into MC is also the most likely reason you won't end up with it. TRIREMES!!!! Especially with increased MC cost (compared to CtH) you'll essentially have full naval control for a LONG time on a most likely predominantly naval map........ (note I have no map knowledge so this is just speculating but with colossus banned seems likely) I'm wondering if anyone will skip sailing and pottery for (I suspect skip at least one of the two and after seeing Ramks T50 Oracle in PB59 I would suspect someone will skip both).

Another line with this play would be to go alphabet and build research with Ind forges up.

No thoughts on just building stonehenge?

Ok, why have I not considered Oracle? That's not a rhetorical question; I really have to ask myself. Basically I decided early that I would not compete for early wonders because we need to get out of the woods first, the woods in this case being Fishless Island. And that remains true: we may justify a second city on the island, but not a third. Overseas settling will be costly - the continent will be teeming with barbs (I have seen the PB89 numbers, they're intimidating), and we need to ferry over military, settlers, workers, pre-build workboats and so on. Basically after hammers being relatively useless in the very early game we will suddenly need them galore.

Now, does the fact that everybody is on islands change that assessment? Uh, yes and no? I expect the islands of weaker leaders to be significantly juicier - e.g. allowing for a second city with food, maybe a third, grassland, unforested grain, stone or marble, precious metal, that kind of stuff. That might allow (or rather tempt?) a player to make a wonder run before crossing the straits. Candidates would be Ari (Monty for CoL ?), Jesper (HRR), shade? (Brennus)... Plemo with India I expect to be handicapped similarly to us but he may also compete if it doesn't fall early, as may Cornflakes if he goes for SH anyways.

So my plan has been to establish a firm foothold (or two) on the continent, beeline currency, and from there start caring about wonders. Metal Casting for the forges would be the next research target indeed and should be doable with currency and ICTR. Mjmd is right that I have not yet considered triremes sufficiently, and if we start next to the guy who oracled them we are in for some pain. (However I have to point out that you can't skip pottery)

But you are right that oracling MC would be rather fantastic for us. I guess 2pop whip forges can't really come too early. The GPP and temple would also be very conductive towards my monk economy plan. But I just can't see a world where we do it before sailing (and pottery), and with all the hammer demands of overseas settling I also expect it to be very difficult to chop out the wonder fast upon finishing the tech.
But if by the time when pottery is in no religion has fallen we may reconsider.

Rusten, do you have an opinion on that?


I can't see a world where we actually build Stonehenge. We're Inca, we're supposed to chop terraces. I am confident that Cornflakes - or otherwise some Myst starter - will go for it eventually. Neither am I interested in building research; our pseudo wealth before currency (and indeed afterwards as well) is failgold.

[Miguelito]

Realms Beyond, tonight I want to find out how [s]nerdy[/s] accomplished the forum population really is. I have the following problem:
I want to predict the distance maintenance on this map. The simplified formula is in post #2 and

DistanceMaintenance = Distance* (1.75*CityPop + 12.25) / MaxPlotDistance

So I need the constant MaxPlotDistance, and for that I have to figure out the map dimensions.

Flying camera in direction of the N-Swrap yielded a neat result:

Note that the grid lines are not quite parallel, so there is some distortion involved. It might be that the map is 3*23 = 69 or maybe also 72 tiles high. But I think the value should be acceptably accurate. However, in direction of the E-W wrap, where the extension apparently is much wider, this is the best picture I can come up with:

And obviously this is so distorted that simple proportionality won't do here.
I have been reading a bit of wiki on central projections, but on the one hand it is not quite an easy read at least for me, and the examples are usually concerned with the inverse problem - obtaining a central projection drawing of a paralllel projection model.
So, I want to know the length of the pink line in the cartesian model (right). I have the left, central projected picture and can obtain any length from there. I also know the dimensions of the green boxes in the cartesian model. Can a mathematically versed lurker please tell me

1. if it is even possible to obtain that length? Wiki tells me that central projections don't allow to measure lengths, but I thought that having a reference it might be?
2. if yes to 1. how do I go about it?

The winner gets to name the quechua, archer, or the first galley!

... natürlich darf auch das Civforum mich gerne überzeugen, dass hier die noch schlaueren Leute rumlaufen

PS: Bringt das was, wie ich hier meine RB-Posts rüberkopiere? Lest Ihr das durch? soll ich es selber durch den Übersetzer drehen? Es ist etwas still hier, aber vielleicht spielen auch einfach fast alle hier mit?

[Papa Bear]

Ich lese sie gerne so wie sie sind, dann muss ich nicht in zwei Foren parallel lesen

Anfangs machen sich Spieler ja viele Gedanken, was die richtige Herangehensweise für sie in diesem Spiel ist. Da sollte man sich - wenn man alles an Stories liest, was es zum Spiel gibt - dann auch zurückhalten, was Kommentare oder auch nur Hinweise zu bestimmten Überlegungen angeht. Sprich: in der frühen Phase des Spiels würde ich mich davon nicht irritieren lassen

[Cybah]

Lese auch mit

[Frozen]

[Miguelito]

Ok, I think I found a solution:
Imgur-Link, da das Forum das sehr hohe Bild zur Unkenntlichkeit komprimiert.
Anybody interested in the details? Basically I did a central projection drawing, following this guide, but backwards. The map dimensions should be something like 98x70, although I don't really have an idea how precise my solution is. Am I correct that on a toroid that means that MaxPlotDistance = (98+70/2)/2 = 66,5?
Embarassingly, after my very tryhard geometric solution got me 90, I felt that that must be too low? So I tried my hand again at flying camera magic and got a much better picture this time:

This more or less confirms the 98 tiles in E-W direction. Well at least I learned something new, I'm actually not unhappy with having spent the time learning a bit on how to draw perspective.

[Miguelito]

Scouting has completed, revealing even more seafoodlessness:

I also set up an updated sandbox with the hopefully correct map dimensions andall tiles we've revealed, including some fog gazing. It is attached here and will also get attached to post #2.

Tbh, I still have not felt a tickle to sim out this start. Maybe that's the reason why instead I went to learn reverse perspective in order to get the map dimensions. That means that we don't have a concrete plan yet and next turn, having finished Hunting, will automatically follow up with Mining-BW. It is very probably the correct call, considering that it brings the number of useful tiles on the island from 2 up to at least 3 and likely 4 with the copper mine.
We should think of something by the time we finish the worker and reach size 2 though (so basically... a month?). I am increasingly skeptical of a second city on the island, at least before the terrace in the capital. Before that I can see the cap sensibly doing 3->5->3 whip cycles on a food surplus of 7, without much room for sharing food with a second city. Only once we have the terrace sharing becomes efficient. That might mean that the first city goes overseas.
Rusten, I know that you argued against this idea, could you elaborate considering what's available in terms of food?

[klops]

zu den zwei threads: ich finde es eher umständlich, weil ich in beiden foren das Spiel mitverfolge, aber ich vermute, dass es auch welche (die mehrheit?) gibt, die nur in einem lesen.

even more seafoodlessness

some next level nerd-shit...

Ich glaube ich hätte es rein geometrisch abgeschätzt (mit recht großem Messfehler?)
Die 8 Felder Höhe haben auf deinem Bild 160 pixel unten und 24 oben...
160 px -> 24 px
20 px -> 3 px (pro Feld) --> Im Durchschnitt 11,5 px pro Feld

Länge lila = 842 px --> 73 Felder Kartenhöhe

Lustigerweise passt das überhaupt nicht zu deinem Ergebnis

[Miguelito]

Lustigerweise passt das überhaupt nicht zu deinem Ergebnis

Zum Glück, sonst wäre die ganze Aktion ja noch sinnloser gewesen


In the spreadsheet I arrived at:
- Sailing after BW eot 39, galley instabuilt t40 on whip OF and chop
- workboat ready
- 2nd city in south founded t45 with instant fish
- settler for 3rd city by northern fish whipped eot 53 -> found t56
- Pottery around t52 (imprecise)
- 50h into Stonehenge
- 2 Quechuas in the southern settlement, 1 axe in the northern one

I like to found by the southern fish first because there appears to be a hill 1S of it. We can then found for the northern fish on the hill after the cap pops borders.

For additional security we could build Quechuas early instead of dumping hammers into SH, but then we'd start to pay unit maintenance from t38 on with the workboat (and then in quick succession settler and galley). Probably worth to build 1 additional Quechua.

I have to run it through the sandbox yet, and the research numbers, particularly Pottery, are precarious because we definitely start paying unit maintenance from t39 on, and I have not factored in the effects of the second city, (IC)TR, or maintenance in general yet.

Another known unknown is the copper location, if we have any in the BFC . If we do that could speed up the second settler, if not then at least the Quechuas have C1? Damn SIP would have solved that at least, but could we know at the time?

Barbs will come by the dozen; in the stats of the games that just got canceled you see players having killed on the order of 50 warriors. Here it will hardly be better, assuming everybody is on islands and they are free to roam on the mainland. I am quite worried about losing a city to early metal barbs appearing. One of the reasons why I'm keen to found on hills. I guess at least with the fish the overseas cities are less prone to getting their improvements pillaged in the early phases.


Ich würde auch hier gerne nach der Meinung des Publikums fragen, ob die erste Stadt gleich nach Übersee geht oder erst noch eine auf die Insel im Süden der HS kommt. Ich sehe da vor Terrassen wenig Sinn drin, und ich glaube, mit Keramik vor Segeln tu ich mir auch keinen Gefallen.

[tux]

Ich würde die erste Stadt nach Übersee setzen. Eine möglichst starke zweite Stadt auf dem Festland (so es denn nicht auch nur kleine Inseln sind) kann relativ bald Siedler bauen, die dann nicht extra noch eine Triere brauchen.

[Dullland]

Die Story könnte mein Englisch verbessern

[Miguelito]

Ich würde die erste Stadt nach Übersee setzen. Eine möglichst starke zweite Stadt auf dem Festland (so es denn nicht auch nur kleine Inseln sind) kann relativ bald Siedler bauen, die dann nicht extra noch eine Triere brauchen.

Hm, sieht so aus, als sei das das Beste. Guter Punkt mit den neuen Städten als Siedlungsbasen. Ich werd aber noch mal die Heimatinselvariante ausprobieren: BV->Keramik (mit oder ohne Fischen?)->Segeln. Schnelle Terrassen, damit 2 Städte auf der Insel effizient peitschen können. Segeln->BV habe ich gerade probiert und es ist, oh Überraschung, erbärmlich .

Die Story könnte mein Englisch verbessern

Ich fürchte, einen Großteil meines aktiven Englisch hab ich tatsächlich von RB. Wir haben auch ein paar literarisch inspirierte Mitglieder, das ist stilbildend .

[Miguelito]

Last minute U-turn!
I started to sim Hunting->Pottery->BW->Sailing, and I like it a lot!
The worker is never idle, the 2nd city makes sense because we get at least one very early terrace and also have some Fin cottages to work. Thanks to wheel the cities get instant trade routes, which together with those cottages really boosts research.


In my non-optimized sandbox run, on turn 55 we have a terrace in the capital and another finishing in city #2. We just unloaded a settler and Quechua by the northern fish, which already has nets. Both cities have been whipped once (2 and 1 pop). Those are hamlets already. The big unknown is copper, and related to that a possible axe we'd want to build for the overseas settlement .

The downside is the later corn farm and possibly copper mine, and chops. But I feel good about it. I hope you can agree?

Had to make the decision this turn as Hunting had just finished, and changed research from Mining to Wheel. In fact it was only possible because superdeath uncharacteristically hasn't played yet, maybe he is not aware of the new turn?

[HodorHODOR]

I am not so sure about the early terrace. Sure, it is an important building. Bit it feels wrong to build it so early when cities can hardly grow/accumulate unhappiness and generally should focus more on settlers, workers, units (and here: galleys). Very early granaries seem to be common over at RB. In my opinion they are often not worth it at this stage of the game where 60 hammers is still alot of production.

[Miguelito]

Hm, also ich bin grundsätzlich schon eine Kornspeicherhu... äh?... -begeisterte Person. Mir ist mal aufgefallen, in 3 von den 4 MP-Spielen, die ich jetzt durch hab, hatte ich billige Kornspeicher (aber gewonnen nur das eine ohne, hmmmm ).
Meine Sichtweise ist, dass wenn ich fast nur über Peitsche produziere, mir der Speicher halt die Produktion verdoppelt. Zufriedenheit konnte ich bisher immer über eng gesetzte Städte mit geteilter Nahrung gut managen. Ob das auf Gottheit auch so gut funktioniert, mal sehen

Jedenfalls haben hier in dem konkreten Fall die beiden Städte nur mit Speicher überhaupt genug Nahrung für eine 2pop-Peitsche alle 10 Runden. Dennoch hätte ich unter Normalbedingungen nicht 60h in eine R40-Terrasse gesteckt. Hier ist aber halt das Ding, dass vor Segeln Hämmer eigentlich ziemlich nutzlos sind. Der Gedanke ist, dass ich mit den 2 Terrassen Produktionskapazität aufbaue, die dann, wenn Segeln da ist, explodieren kann. Ein Vorteil gegenüber der BV-Segeln-Überseegründungs-Eröffnung isst auch, dass der Arbeiter immer was Sinnvolles zu tun hat, anstelle teils rumzuhocken und teils zweifelhaft Holt zu fällen. Bei den frühen Hütten (die erste wird ab R37 belegt) wäre ich normal auch unsicher, glaube aber, dass sie hier ganz hilfreich sein werden, noch dazu mit Fin.

Aber ja, ob die Keramikeröffnung wirklich besser ist als der alte Plan, da bin ich heute auch deutlich unsicherer als noch gestern Abend. Nur hab ich jetzt auch schon 18 Kolben in Rad gesteckt, so dass BV noch länger bräuchte... mal schaun, ich wollte heute Abend beides noch mal durchspielen.

Andererseits wäre es wenigstens mal was Anderes. Ich spiele immer die verschiedensten Eröffnungen durch, und am Ende gewinnt immer BV zuerst. Und das wird wohl so bleiben, bis ich Charriu überredet kriege, Sklaverei auf Steinmetzkunst zu legen (er will aber nicht, denn das ist nicht close to home ).
Hier brauchen wir kein frühes Kupfer zur Verteidigung*, und der Fokus liegt früh eher auf Kommerz als auf Hämmern, so dass es vielleicht wirklich mal geht.

*wobei, bettelt diese Karte nicht geradezu um Axttrieren? Eigentlich mag ist Sepp destruktives Spiel ja nicht, aber...