90 - Sachsens Glanz und Miguelustens Gloria

[Miguelito]

oh and we finally know which leaders were drawn for those civilizations which have more than one:

• shade: Brennus - I'd prefer him if I were playing Celts, and for us it's also less scary than having to face Boudicca
• Hagen0/civac2: Qin Shi Huang - worse than Mao, although it means he does not get a nerfed start (nerfs were done for Fin, Exp, Imp and India). Ind competitor for wonders
• Xist10: Ramesses II - I think I'd prefer Hatty, but Rammer has more synergy I guess. Another Ind.
• Cornflakes: De Gaulle - that's the leader to rush Stonehenge, right? We're not competing ofc. Yet another Ind
• Mr. X: Frederick - even less early game than Bismarck, but great late game potential if he gets there.
• Plemo: Asoka - I'm sure Plemo would have made great things happen with Phi, but Org is just such a power trait in a game that likely will remain competitive into the industrial era. Terrifying.
• GT: Genghis Khan - no strong opinion, but I think I hate bordering Cre more than Imp, so that's good. Also gets a nerfed start.
• naufragar: Suleiman - Mehmed would definitely have been too boring for nauf. Now he gets to do some whacky stuff with Phi at least.
• firlefanzer: Cyrus - not Darius :nod: . But maybe Cyrus is the nastier neighbour actually?
• Hubabl: Peter - Better than Stalin, worse than Cathy? Don't expect him to make too much out of Phi.

[Miguelito]

I like going NE. If we don't find anything then 1S looks a good plant. If we do find something I like 2E (or 1NW if what we find is not included in 2E)

Noted (so you don't think I missed it to the crosspost).

Why 2E over NE (I think that is what you meant, or NW from 2E ?). Assuming both get the same stuff NE gets founded a turn earlier and preserves the forest. For the chance of more stuff in the fog?

Not sure yet if I move today , or let it rest until tomorrow (and allow for more lurker input)

[Miguelito]

Wir hatten ein bisschen Diskussion im RB-Faden, hier letzter Stand:

Good luck, Miguelito! I started a post thinking about the Q move, got interrupted, and found out my thoughts are already well out of date!

assuming the mapmaker is evil, with 1S or SIP we run the risk of orphaning a bunch of seafood on 2 coasts. Settling W or SW would partially avoid that.

This was my reaction too: The only thing that would stop me from settling 1S after the Q move's reveal would be if it would strand seafood (well, or I guess if the whole south turned out to be desert or something) and I can't think of a way for the archer to check that adequately. I think at this point, I'd move the Archer 1SW for the best vision available on T0, and if that doesn't reveal anything against the spot, just trust that the mapmaker isn't completely evil and settle 1S. That's just off the top of my head though.

(Note: I haven't seen any other starts yet, so between that and the looser Civforum lurker code, I'm pretending to be a dedlurker here for ... you know, the next two minutes. I think it's an interesting start, and looks like the game could be fun to play! ... Although that little cape revealed by the Q sure isn't promising....)

[EDIT: And yeah, my instinct is definitely to tech Hunting and build Worker first, but like the above, this is without even any meaningful mentalsimming.]

Island it is, it seems. No seafood in reach though. But an important question is, how many cities do we want to fit on here? 1S would leave us just with the northern cape. 1NE or 1W (<- ne stimmt nicht) would allow for 3 cities. I don't know yet however how much the small deity map will punish settling even those though, and if it's better to stay at 2 before Sailing.

If it's an island indeed of course that also affects the urgency of BW, although chopping will also be quite important and it's gating the corn.

Basically I feel like to decide these questions (ie before founding the capital) we kinda have to sim until Sailing in 2 or 3 variants.
I think Hunting first is a given, and probably fur camp first, given all the beakers we need to break out. The fur pays for Hunting within 13 turns, and well the worker gets to do something. We might also want to heavily lean into Fin coast. Also mind that we are playing unmodded and do need Fishing for workboats. So, possible variants:

1. Hunting - Mining - BW - Fishing - Sailing
2. 1. but with Wheel - Pottery after BW or Fishing
3. Hunting - Fishing - Sailing straight?
4. ...I'm tired and can't think of any other, but please come with ideas.

[Miguelito]

Your point regarding eventual maintenance is valid and should be considered. (Rustens Argument für 1S)

However my current favourite is still 1NE. Reasons:

• meta wise and from seeing the PB89 map by the same mapmaker, I consider it pretty likely that they set up the original BFC so it would orphan seafood, as a means to provide choices and tradeoffs :rolleye:
• I would expect Fin fishing villages to be pretty useful long term, but maybe I'm underestimating deity costs for pop. But I think we need to aim a bit more for long term advantages than usual. Also one of those caps might be a good eventual Moai, even though difficult to set up. But we'll have time for it while seeing up failgold in other cities.
• Despite the fur I think we'll likely be quite happy constrained short to mid term, so more cities and sharing seems like a good call.

Was meint Ihr so, würdet Ihre erwarten, dass da an der Ostküste im Wasser was zu Essen versteckt ist?

[Miguelito]

Fur isn't crucial if there's financial seafood there. If there is none we can go back and get the fur in our BFC.

I don't care too much what we decide, it's impossible to know, but maybe 1NE is best. I'd be sad if we orphan fish north just because we don't scout it, but if it's out of reach that means it's in 2nd ring which we'd not have access to in the early phase anyway.

After spending the night not simming and instead going through PB59 threads, I decided to accept that there's no way to avoid errors, and went ahead:

You called it, but at least it isn't orphaned. Just have to settle that way. It also means that we did not necessarily settle the cap in the wrong direction, as there may be multiple directions for overseas expansion . On that note, flying camera tells me that the wrap is toroidal, and the map extends significantly wider E-W than N-S.

Set research to hunting and queued the worker. The archer has to move straight to the capital now by the referee's orders, so it will take a few turns yet until we have scouted the whole island. My plan is to camp the fur right away and tech as fast as possible. The big question for me right now is the order of Fishing/Mining/BW/Sailing/Pottery, but we can scout the island first and decide then (and meanwhile read more PB59 and post a wrapup).

[Miguelito]

One thing that is not-so-bad about the fish: we'll have it in borders by t50, so if around that time we send a galley north we can settle for it in the second ring and still get running immediately.


So we are looking at 6/0,0022/18 approx. 150 tiles per player. That gives me hope that by the time we have Sailing we will at least still find uncontested land.


The terrain looks terribly un-Saxon. You'd expect green hills, peaks, rivers and the sea far away. I'm debating to just switch to safari.

[Miguelito]

Civforum games are a test of patience. We will play a 120, 130 or 150 turns with no better than copper units. We will watch one mover stacks slowly crawling towards conquest or doom. Each of those turns might take two days. The first one took six. It took three for the last team to even claim their civ. But we are patient, because patience is the way.


Good thing that we nuked PB59 and there's something to read up on.

No new tiles yet. Demos:


There is a capital with just 4 land tiles in the first ring, and none is completely landlocked. OF 18 players 16 founded on t0, with just newbie leolo and (rusty?) vet Ari moving for a turn. I felt bad for not having a plains hill option, but maybe most people didn't. At least from what I've seen on Civforum it seems that it's rather unusual for the settler to be placed on top of a plains hill. Also, noticed how SIP would have left us with no second city site on the island at all ?

In fact, we have no hills at all. Now we can expect for the land overseas to look different, but I'm already speculating about leveraging Ind for the AP to compensate a low production. Without early stone/marble (reminder this is BTS and the bonus is 100%) and the need to invest in overseas expansion we don't have a great shot at early wonders, but the bonusless AP might come at the right time. Civforum players love to adopt and spread the AP religion, and I've never built a shrine in MP despite founding a religion in every game (don't remember PBEM64 tbh). Wondering if we could get a prophet for a theology bulb, but the only path I see would be Artemis? Well that or just plain temple for the first GP. But I actually thought that we should pursue a really clean Currency beeline. Well it's all pie in the sky so far anyways.

I should be able to sim a bit the next couple of days, although I might wait to see what our 2nd and possibly 3rd city will have in its BFC.

My starting thoughts/priorities:
-Early granaries could be good if we're short on settling spots and need to wait for techs (sailing)
-Need to have a wb ready for that northern settlement immediately when settling. Huge tile with FIN.
-No more than 1 worker.

That would be lovely! I'm attaching a sandbox with the new tiles. The later save is upon finishing Hunting. You'll get another once we have uncovered everything in reach.

On your points:

• granaries terraces require Pottery though which in turn delays Sailing. Now going into this I was sure I woudl want Pottery as soon as imaginable. Both for the superawesome UB and to get started on cottaging in order to avoid expansion bankruptcy. But now we are looking at just two riverside cottages in the capital and no more than four on the whole island. We will most probably want to cottage the dry tiles as well, but it doesn't look too appetizing. Better to get by on coast for the time being and take Sailing first?
• Workboat for the northern fish upon settling, Sir yes Sir! Also for the southern one if we go that way. It is actually quite nice to have those fish tiles on the expansion coast, as we will not be able to share tiles in the new cities, and I usually dislike having to improve a tile in a new city with a worker.
• Yes, and even that worker will be terribly bored soon enough. In my preliminary furs camp first plan he builds the two camps t11-21, then idles for 4, then takes 9 turns for the corn farm (until t34) and after that? Well maybe/probably/hopefully there's a copper mine, but apart from that he can basically spend the turns prechopping all the forests. I don't believe that we ever want to build a plains farm; basically that citizen costs more than they rake in.

Edit: To see if I understand you correctly, you are proposing a camp on the furs before the deer?

Missed this the last time. Yes indeed that was my idea. I took the opportunity to actually compare the variants: Deer camp first is up 19 foodhammers, while furs gets 17 additional raw commerce, reaching BW 2 turns earlier. And with this start I think that trade off is an option and I would lean towards taking it. The city also grows much later with the furs camp, and meanwhile has nothing to build but quechuas or a barracks. Both of which are not good for anything for a long time (we even already have the garrison for city 2). In the end however the settler comes just 2 turns later (t31 vs 29) because he can take full advantage of the corn chop, while deer camp first has the settler getting 16h overflow that can not be used for a WB yet. This got convoluted and I try to make it more clear.

Furs camp first has

• BW turn 26
• settler turn 31 with 0 OF
• Fishing turn 30
• 25 hammers into quechua/barracks

Deer camp first has

• BW turn 27
• settler turn 29 with 16 OF
• Fishing turn 31, or 32 if second city maintenance hits already
• 12 hammers into quechua/barracks. And we have to see what to do with the settler OF and the subsequent turns' production, but I guess that can just go into the next settler

Now under normal circumstances of course the deer camp is a total no brainer, but here I am not quite so sure. If we find seafood for the second city I also want to explore researching Fishing before BW, because then the early hammers can be put to some actual use. But of course that delays BW, lets the worker idle more, and delays the settler as well.

[Miguelito]

zwei Fragen:

- kann ich irgendwie die genauen Dimensionen der Karte rausbekommen? Ich glaube da war was mit goto-Befehl ins Schwarze oder so, oder geht das erst ab Kalender?

- hat jemand fix die Formeln für Unterhalt zur Hand? Hagen postet sie manchmal, aber der spielt ja hier mit. Ich könnte wohl suchen, aber vielleicht will ich auch nur, dass hier mal wer anderes schreibt....

[Cybah]

Ging das nicht irgendwie über die angezeigten Landpunkte von einem selber?

Formeln:

https://www.civforum.de/showthread.p...alast-BTS-3-19
https://www.civforum.de/showthread.p...aedte-BTS-3-19

DistanceMaintenance=
(100 x (MaxDistanceCityMaint x Distance) x (CityPop + 7) / 10 x (Civic_M + 100) / 100 x WorldSize_M/100 x Handicap_M/100) / MaxPlotDistance

NumOfCitiesMaintenance=
100 x (CityPop + 17)/18) x WorldSize_M/100 x Handicap_M/100 x NumOfCities)/100

[Papa Bear]

Ging das nicht irgendwie über die angezeigten Landpunkte von einem selber?

Ich habe das hier kürzlich auch in irgendeiner Story gesehen, kann mich aber - altes Mann und so - nicht dran erinnern, wo genau

Wenn man die Maus über die eigene Punktzahl stellt, wird links angezeigt, wie sich die eigenen Punkte zusammensetzen. Und bei den Landefeldern stehen dann sowohl die eigenen als auch die, die es insgesamt gibt, meine ich. Aber ohne Gewähr...

[Miguelito]

Danke für die Links Cybah, genau was ich brauchte, inklusive einer Erklärung für langsame Zeitgenossen
Zur Klarheit: Ich wüsste gerne Höhe und Breite der Karte, um nämlich die Größe MaxPlotDistance in die Sim einzubauen. Auf dem eigenen Namen sehe ich die Gesamtanzahl der Landfelder (2695), die hatte ich ja weiter oben schon aus F8 mit 6/0.22% = 2727 ganz gut abgeschätzt. Aber wahrscheinlich muss ich für MaxPlotDistance einfach mal ne Stadt gründen

Und gleich mal Neuigkeiten:

this is grim.

I thought that Rob/Ziankali were trolling when they made it so SIP would invalidate any other spot, but maybe they were trying to save us from agony?
Really starting to doubt whether we even want to put another city on this godforsaken island (before Currency or w/e). But probably sharing corn and deer will still be worthwhile for the quest of getting out of here. Or will it? Before the lighthouse the capital will have +7f on size 3 and 4, so before terraces the city will not really stack whip anger from 2pop whips... but still, having another city should at least let us use foodmore efficiently during settler/worker builds, and Fin coast should make it at least mildly profitable... right ?
But maybe we want to give Sailing before BW some consideration? At size 5 the galley takes just 5 turns, and we'd get an overseas route (as opposed to a city on the southern island coast, which would be unconnected before Sailing).


Und ja, ich kann von hier aus schon deutlich hören, wie sich im Zuschauerfaden die hier Einheimischen über die von Schlaraffenländern verwöhnten RBler beömmeln... tatsächlich fand ich zum Beispiel PB89 nicht besonders mangelig, aber hier hätte ich wohl vorsichtiger sein müssen. Im Techfaden lassen mehrere durchblicken, dass sie auch auf Miniinseln sitzen, mal gespannt was die so treiben.
Also, erste Stadt in ÜBersee?

[klops]

2x Nahrung und glückliche Biber, das *ist* doch schlaraffig
Ok, der Rest eher nicht so.

Ich finde den Start schwierig aber interessant. Bin leider zu schlecht, um eine Strategie zu bewerten, da muss man wohl einige Testläufe machen.

[Miguelito]

Der Start ist interessant, keine Frage. Er stellt Fragen, ohne dass die Antwort gleich klar ist, das ist schon gut so. Nur isses halt auch Quälerei, aber dafür bin ich ja hier

Und es ist heilige Pflicht der Spieler, über die Karte zu meckern, sonst sind doch die Kartenmacher ganz enttäuscht. Leider erreiche ich darin nicht die stilistische Brillanz von zB naufragar, aber der ist ja gleich nebenan.

[Miguelito]

I'll be surprised if a 2nd city isn't worth it. Even if the food will be low there's next to no maintenance and it enables trade routes. Chopping early terraces will be a priority.

I refuse to believe that sailing (and building a galley) without BW is even an option.

I don't really believe in either, but I'm warming up to the idea of at least considering them as options.

It also just occurred to me that we can dump excess hammers into Stonehenge for failgold. Off course you normally wouldn't, but if extra hammers only serve to make us pay unit maintenance out sounds better than a barracks. We even get the Ind bonus, and at least Cornflakes with De Gaulle will surely want to build it sooner rather than later?

On that note, I edited the roster including leaders into post #2. We share Ind with 4 other guys :rolleye: . Wonders are decided by tech not hammers. Oh look, we are Fin (along with 3 others). And of course, will is important - with many Ind leaders mass paralysis out of fear of losing might definitely happen. Do you have an idea for a target wonder yet*? I mentioned AP above, and Artemis in order to help with it. There's always MoM. Colossus and GLH are banned.

Also no Cre :jive:. I don't necessarily love being Cre, but I hate to face them.

* global lurkers are welcome to make their suggestions as well

[Miguelito]

After the vets started bantering how they have nothing to do during the early turns, the mapmaker now basically confirmed that everybody starts on a tiny island (offering to end turns 6-12 for everybody who would not have a tech or build finishing, meaning there would be no scout moves).

I posted passive aggressively in the tech thread because I feel it's a pretty heavy spoiler. Fwiw if anything it benefits us - if Montezuma starts on a tiny island, he can be sure that we have it similar or worse. However I could well have imagined for Brennus or De Gaulle to start on mainland. So I guess for us that contains some useful info:

• anybody beelining Stonehenge is pretty unlikely, meaning that payout on failgold will be delayed (none of the other Ind leaders starts with Mysticism)
• we don't have to expect to face an established mainland empire when settling overseas first
• dunno, what else?