90 - Sachsens Glanz und Miguelustens Gloria

[Miguelito]

Ne, vor 10 Runden konnte ich noch gar keine Äxte bauen (aber wäre der Verfall nicht 1/Runde?)

Die Reihenfolge war so:

• t61 Siedler gepeitscht
• t62 angebautes Arbeitsboot fertiggestellt mit reichlich Überschuss
• t63 eine Runde + Überschuss in einen BT (11h)
• t64 eine Runde (4h) in eine frische Axt. Den BT habe ich vielleicht aus der Liste genommen.
• t65
• t66 (jetzige) Bauliste leer, Axt ist auf 4/35 und BT auf 11/60, sonst keine Hämmer in irgendeinem Bauprojekt.

edit: Endlich mal was los hier

[Ramkhamhaeng]

Hallo Mig,

nach dem Laden einiger Spielstände konnte ich den Fehler auf genau diesen Zeitbereich eingrenzen:

19.06.2022 22:55:25 65 vanguard logged in << Hier ist die Liste in der HS leer.
19.06.2022 22:50:50 65 Miguelito finished turn
19.06.2022 22:42:54 65 Xist10 logged out << Hier besteht das Problem noch nicht

D.h. es war nicht im Rundenwechsel 65->66, aber zu dem Zeitpunkt warst du eingeloggt.

Mir fallen zwei mögliche Ursachen ein:
1. Es gab einen Übertragungsfehler, als dein Client den Bauauftrag in der HS gewechselt hat. Auf der Serverseite wurde dann der alte gelöscht und der neue nicht gesetzt.
2. (Meine Vermutung) Normalerweise ist es nicht möglich alle Aufträge aus der Bauauftragsliste zu löschen. Es gibt in der GUI aber versteckt (ungünstiges Klicken, eine Tastenkombination, F1-Menü, ?!, … ich weiß es nicht) doch die Möglichkeit die Liste zu leeren. Das ist zufälligerweise passiert.


Ich werde der Axt vier Hämmer gut schreiben. Ist die Ordnung in der Civ-Welt dann wieder hergestellt?
Nahrung & Gold wurden IMHO nicht beeinflusst, da das Problem mit der Bauliste zusammenhing.

[Lord of the Civ]

Super, danke, Ramk.

[Miguelito]

Liebsten Dank Schriri und Ramk!
Ich wollte zwar wirklich in erster Linie verstehen, was los ist, aber um ehrlich zu sein kann ich mir gerade auch nicht leisten, irgendwelche Hämmer zu verlieren

thanks very much Ramk!

On the new turn...


I moved back in as I saw the barb city down to 2 axes and I wanted to avoid that Ari would just get it, but now our own city is in danger. We may have to 1pop-whip the axe in the capital, and will still need combat luck. Fwiw the wounded Aztec axe is at 82HP and has shock, ugh. Also reeived a healing event, lovely. If we keep the turn order with Ari playing first we can see next turn whether he attacked and then whip or eat the loss (say, his first axe gets a flawless win) <-- das stimmte gar nicht, aber mir ist was anderes eingefallen.

Was it an error to aim for 2 landmasses? But could I tolerate someone else settling 4 tiles from our capital?

Plemo founded a new city while I feel that we are like 10 turns away from our next (of course Ari is ahead of us as well). Looks like we may not get too far here. The snowball somehow won't roll. Might be the shrine maneuver as well.

Turn's not finished.

[Miguelito]

To be fair Ari doesn't know your city is empty, not that its worth the risk necessarily. Probably just wants to raze the barb city so you don't get.

hm, I think he will keep it, and how am I going to stop him? With chariots maybe...
Anyways, even if he marches straight on us, I think I have a contingency plan that is expensive but doesn't force us to 1pop whip the capital down to size 1 this turn, so here's your silver lining.


I've been wondering why we are so far behind in expansion and military (we're global last in power )
Possible explanations:

1. the comfortable one - the mapmakers couldn't help themselves but to hammer down on Fin Inca with all the nerfs they got. Everybody else just has a way nicer start. Take Plemo's Ashoka, who has 5 cities and Oracle but could also spare the commerce to research Writing by turn 54. Again, I'm sure he played an awesome start, but I just don't see how this would have been remotely possible with what we had. And I'd argue that Ashoka of India warrants at least as heavy a nerf as Huayna of Inca. Sure I'm biased.
2. The Pottery->BW start. Probably that? I still am pretty fond of the early terraces, but leaving the corn forested for so long was probably criminal. However, we have consistently worked all the food and never went unhappy, so I don't know how much an earlier whip would have done for us. But then we had the corn at 2/2 instead of 5/1/1 for so long, and also a bunch of food went into settlers, which we always hate. All in all, when I came up with the Pottery opening I did not have the time to check against a thorough sim with BW first (only had an older, non-optimized run).
3. Not getting an earlier 2nd worker? As of last turn, we had 6*20 +13 hammers in unrealized chops within our borders. So a worker could have made a positive return by now, however that would have comeat the expense of a later 3rd city, which has worked Fin fish from the moment it was founded on. There's not many tiles I'd rather have improved.

If it's 2, I just have myself to blame. I knew that this was a variant and went into it for fun. Of course that can turn into suffering upon meeting your Agg neighbour.

Btw Rusten, are you still around and interested? Is whininess driving you away? Well you've put up with it in previous games...

[Miguelito]

Saved the axe with a peacetime double move right after turn roll. On RB I wouldn't but by CF house rules it's legal and a regular occurrence (Schiri, ich hoffe das stimmt so?). Fwiw that was not the aforementioned contingency plan.
Also Chemnitz got a Hindu spread, which is the ideal place for our first one and will put pressure on that cow even before we get that terrace up (which is being delayed because axe takes priority)

[Lord of the Civ]

Saved the axe with a peacetime double move right after turn roll. On RB I wouldn't but by CF house rules it's legal and a regular occurrence (Schiri, ich hoffe das stimmt so?).

[Miguelito]

Danke nochmal Lord.

You have traits and shrine to keep your eco going in late middle game and further. You just need to make sure you have enough land to make use of. I think you are still in ok position without having any actual knowledge on how your opponents are doing.

Do you have any change landing also Judaism for extra shrine?

There might be a chance, but it's already painful to get out one prophet, and if we manage a second I'd rather bulb theology for AP... Also I'm trying to not get distracted too much from Currency. All trade routes will be intercontinental. And then it will be high time for MC, assuming we get the silver especially.

Situation in the north is stable for the moment I think. Meanwhile down south:

With one turn of fortification, that barb will have 11% chance to kill the sole Quechua responsible for the security of this colony (and force an axe whip). I'm not going to risk the worker on it - another turn lost on a cottage on the river, but just that. Assuming our boy holds I might try to pull of founding a second city on the landmass before the axe isup (would follow the turn after). Leipzig makes 10fh/turn and will get a chop for a t72 settler whip
God it's so damn slow... And there are no other settlers even planned for atm. We need one for the corn dot, and I don't know where to even start for that one... maybe Meißen, much slowly. On the northern landmass we will be able to expand only by the axe, unless Ari contents himself with just razing Shangian.
With that, I regret not having researched AH before Writing. Maybe I should just swap to that, but now also Maths is near for some much needed increase in hammer potential. We'll get the cow into borders soon, but if Ari keeps his axes around it will be hard to improve (and ultimately he'll get it anyways).

[Miguelito]

anxiety continues.

He saw the retreating axe, but can't look into the city. On the galley I'm keeping a quechua for an upgrade if necessary, and the axe in Chemnitz is whippable next turn. One from the capital is a few turns away (next turn whip worker, axe comes the turn after, boards t71 and can unload 72). So we should be safe, even if it costs us.

[Miguelito]

he kept it


So both green leaders saw that evident No Trespassing tundraicepeaks line and thought it funny to get themselves a city right into our faces. What do? Again, patience is the way, if there even is one.
Ari's aquisition is more into our face than nauf's, however naufragar has the silver and he's on our sea. Probably we'll have to wait and see if conflict breaks out between the two of them, and side with one. Getting some chariots up would not come amiss anyways. The question is, should we research AH before or after maths? Would feel pretty stupid right after finishing Writing, but that's just spilled milk and should not be a factor.
I mean, if Ari doesn't send a spear soon, 2 chariots from the capital and one conveniently whipped in Chemnitz with overflow for the next one, ideally combined with a timely road disguised as a chop could work. Big question though is wether we have horses. If we're lucky there are some right by Chemnitz, as copper was on the other overseas landmass in a similar spot. Anyways, I put the Writing OF into AH and will turn up research next turn if there are no objections.

With 1-pop to whip, stationed axe, city on a hill and at least 2 turns of warning trying to attack with less than 4 axes is foolish. Unless he can surprise you with chariots

For chariots I have an upgradable Quechua (suboptimal, sure). But mind that he's Monty. One of those axes has shock already, the other one should have got it from killing the warrior? (C1 axe vs fortified warrior on a hill and in a city, does that give 2XP on attack?)

[Miguelito]

Turn 70

Who can spot the error?



That's right, Ari conquered yet another barb city . With 7 he's the game leader now, by my PBspy accounts. That's right, our one neighbour is the guy with the most cities and Agg, the other one has Fast Workers and oracled CoL while also staying ahead of us in city count, and the third one is a self proclaimed axe enthusiast.

The one good thing that might come out of this I suppose is Ari going bankrupt with lots of cities and no economy trait to help (I think he had no Writing yet when we researched it).

For now I accepted OB. He would be able to look into Chemnitz anyways (with his barely scratched C2 shock axe...), and maybe this builds trust?


Meanwhile an offer goes out to naufragar:



The corn is obscure, it's intended to mean Aztecs. But anyways, Ari is our only common contact, surely he can figure it out. Note that nauf is still at the same embarassing 4 cities as we are despite Imp. That should enhance the motivation for an alliance. If naufragar goes after us, Ari will just take the spoils, which is also likely if Ari fights us one after another. Am I mad at nauf's silver city in our designated territory? Absolutely, but the Aztec behemoth is the immediate problem.

The likely way to deal with him is not really immediate though. The best way to overcome the axe advantage and bring our own strengths in play seems to be Maths->Currency->MC->IW->Machinery->Masonry+Construction and wreck his elite axes with crossbows - so some way to go (or rather immediate construction?). The alternative would be HBR+archery, but I'm hesitant to go there before Currency, and ultimately Agg spears negate horchers rather easily, considering his hammer potential is vastly superior.


Turn 70 and we whip our second worker !



Down south:

With the chop the settler will be whippable in 2 turns and after just two turns of dumping food into him. The plan is to found the city with just the Quechua as cover, but the queued axe will be immediately trailing, and reinforcements will also come from Meißen on the island where we finished the galley first.


Meißen btw got its third ring by virtue of holy city, and we see something we didn't see before:

Ottoman borders - is that his starting island, or a second overseas colony of naufragar's? Well anyways, it continues to demonstrate how insane astronomy is on this map. And nauf is Phi, lovely, isn't it? But anyways, let's just get as far so as to worry about that kind of problems in the first place.

[Miguelito]

Need to catch up on reports. Caution, this is not a happy post.
T71 we find another neighbour:

GT/Empirate with Genghis Khan. Empirate is quite competent; GT's builder skills have been lacking in previous games, but he is a tenacious and active defender who might raze a city or three even he's down already. This team might complement each other really well. I hope they are more of a counterweight to Plemo than a threat to us.
Two turns later:

But Miguelito what the hell are you doing? Either it was a wholly unconscious misclick or another server fluke, but the galley started the turn with a goto order to the east. Messes up the sending of reinforcements and the new worker from Meißen, but so what (well, it would be a shame if Plemo attacks our new settlement right away, but I don't think he will).

With two neighbours in the north and two in the south known, I think it is fair to say that this game we just drew the short straw in the neighbour lottery, after having done fairly well in our previous two games.
In the north there is Ari who has more cities than anybody else and Agg to make him unassailable for the moment. What's more, he is a serious threat to Chemnitz. There is also naufragar who is seriously underexpanded considering he's Imp, but has found the energy to settle up on us. We have no more room for further cities beyond the one we got down.
In the south there is Plemo whom I've tlaked about at length, and another competent neighbour.

So at this point I think we're not really competing for the win here. That's ok, but what are our goals then?

1. not dying - of course that's always the goal, but it has to be taken extra considering the threats north and south.
2. expand anyways - I think it has to be through Ari
3. get a monk economy running and enjoy

1. and 2. are of course part of the basic winning strategy, they're just extra hard to the point of unlikely here.

So why Ari? naufragar returned my copper/copper corn. I don't think attacking him would be profitable - Ari could then just take all of the island(?) after us weakening each other. Against Ari we may have a chance through tech superiority if he breaks his economy by amassing too many unprofitable cities. And Shangian, the one bordering us, must be quite expensive with how close it is to us. It also is compleltely intolerable for us to have that city on our doorstep short, medium and long term.
Case in point:

The hope is that this worker is just chopping, but if it's a road a chariot or three on the ice can hit us from the fog. The spear can and will be whipped in two turns, but if he goes at it right away it will be too late. The alternative would be to upgrade the Quechua, but I'm not there yet mentally Might reconsider next turn; the road can't finish before t75 (fake edit: I went in and changed the city to work double plains forests :shakehead: so we can whip next turn. Ouch). The situation here is really really depressing. See that horse, our only one? Yeah it's near possible to improve because Ari sits on the forest with a fucking C2 shock axe, and has another in the city. I could cover with four axes and he'd just pick them one by one. Maybe after borders pop, if he allows it .
I can hardly feel like this is our fault. Even with a more efficient BW start I can imagine at most being able to raze that barb city in time, if we beelined for it dedicatedly, but why would we?
My faint hope is for something with crossbows to work, but honestly... maybe if we go together with naufragar. But it's also quite likely that he just throws us off that landmass within the next 5, 10 or 20 turns.

We can celebrate what I hope is the first village on the map:

Problem is, after those two our 3rd cottage was finished just this turn . The other hamlet will take a while longer, as I can't work it continuously.


Demos reflect my general assessment.

T73 first in GNP is baaaad.

[Miguelito]

We had Plemo's graphs for a turn. I haven't looked at them too closely. CY is atrocious of course. Power might be very bad news, but I'lll just hope that it's insurance against the Mongols to the east, or something on his other border. At least so far nothing in sight, and we'll get our first axe on that landmass in... uh, a few turns, maybe even next.
Here's the dump:

Achtung Spoiler:

[Papa Bear]

Try instead of :shakehead:

And I agree, that is really absolutely not an enviable position as far as your neighbors are concerned

[Miguelito]

Hm, manchmal verpasse ich die rüberkopierten Smileys.
Ich würde mir ja mehr Diskussion wünschen und irgendwie antworten alle immer auf Englisch, also probieren wir jetzt mal, dass mich Deepl übersetzt und ich den komischsten Kram dann von Hand korrigiere:



t75. Gefahr im Überfluss.



Ich hätte die Axt wirklich eine Runde früher fertigstellen sollen, aber ich war gierig und habe die Hütte bearbeitet. Plemo bot OB an, was ich natürlich annahm. Mit einem Friedens-Doppelzug könnte ich die Axt rechtzeitig ins Spiel bringen, aber ich kann nicht zuverlässig nach dem Zug spielen und Plemo ist normalerweise sehr schnell am Zug. Wenn er deklariert, müsste ich den Quechua aufwerten. Man beachte auch, dass mein Galeeren-Fehlklick die Verstärkung weiter erschwert. Nun, hoffen wir einfach, dass er mit OB besuchen kommt.




Ich nehme an, Ari hat das Monument geholzt. Unsere Terrasse wird in der nächsten Runde geholztund in der übernächsten Runde gepeitscht, also werden wir seinen ersten Ring für eine Weile bekommen, aber später als ich gehofft hatte. Und das ist nur für die Pferdeweide . Oder wir können das Pferd mit... 4? Äxten decken, während wir dran bauen, das sollte es für ihn zumindest riskant machen, uns anzugreifen. Argh.